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« Chez Miscarriage Taking Leave | Main | it is about frickin' time »

Comments

ericalil

She took away her archive because some hideously stupid people were stealing material and re-printing it against her wishes. Her material is her own, and if she does not give permission, shouldn't be reprinted.

aliza/babyfruit

I think there has to be some balance here.

Anything published on the Web has the potential of being stolen. If you are in the business of writing for the Web - ie. making money for writing your blog - then content theft can have an impact on your bottom line.

But if you are writing for self-expression and especially with any thought of helping others with valuable information, then the propogation of that content is essential (inevitable) regardless of the source.

Yes, in a perfect copyright-protected world, we all want to be credited for our blog content online. However, if some idiot wants to steal my content, post it on their blog and claim to be the writer, I only hope the content reaches more people, is helpful to others and that karma will get the thief sooner than later.

If someone is blogging for bucks, then there are more reasons to protect and police the copyrighted material, but even then, taking it away is not the best (right?) solution.

cat

Why is stealing someone’s words any more or less incorrect than stealing physical property?

I feel that stealing intellectual property is unethical. It is also illegal. She has a clear copyright warning on her site and made her intentions known. She had every right to take the material down if people could not adhere to her very clear wishes.

This debate about intellectual property has been raging for hundreds of years. It is the reason we have intellectual property laws in the first place. The internet doesn’t make it any more legal to steal.

We should feel free to express ourselves without the fear of having our thoughts stolen and should be able to protect those thoughts and writings in anyway we choose.

Creative Commons. Is a great way to meet the issue in the middle. http://creativecommons.org/

Her archives were amazing! I hope one day she will publish them for the world to read. Until then we will have to remember.


aliza/babyfruit

Hey, I'm the first to stand by copyright laws and have had my own copyright violated many times (as well as some of the registered trademarks I used to own). It is a horrible experience and bad, bad, bad.

But if you put it online, there is that risk. If you are so sensitive about someone stealing your content, do NOT PUT IT ONLINE. Policing a mark or copyright is nearly impossible with the Internet unless you have the time, money and international resources to do so.

But to put up a blog with a copyright notice and then say "and if anyone steals my content, I'm out of here" is plain stupid. It is NOT possible to prevent it. Sad but true. So in the meanwhile, one total ass steals her content and the hundreds or thousands of women she has helped and touched are now left out in the cold?

I think it is pure selfishness. Take it from me - I have been guilty of something very similar back in 1993 where I formed several forums on a BBS for women on some pretty sensitive topics. When I became angry at the management who owned the BBS, I deleted all the forums - all the content I created, all the comments and conversations between members. At the time, I felt it was justified because, after all, I had created it from the ground up. But looking back, I realized how selfish I was because I may have created it, but it was seeded and nurtured by all the members of the forum and became a part of their lives, too. I destroyed the garden with a backhoe.

If she really wanted to protect her copyright, she would have made her blog private and password protected and only invited people she could trust inside. She didn't.

Bec

Again that's not necessarily true. Most webhosting providers stipulate that you may not use copyright material if you want to be hosted by them. If you contact the site owner and they refuse to remove your content you can simply contact their webhost and explain the situation to them. More of then not they will either forcibly remove the content or close the account.

I realise that this doesn't make it any easier to police, but it does mean that you don't have to have legal resources at your desposial.

Julie

I'm not sure I think that getupgrrl or any of us has an obligation to let our words live on so those that come after us may benefit from them.

Sure, there's a kind of contract between bloggers and their commenters at the time of posting, because there's a give-and-take that ensues, where the writer often benefits from the support and ideas of her readers, but once the conversation has trailed off, do the latecomers to the game really have any rights in the matter?

I think it makes a lot more sense to be grateful she shared at all, than to try to argue that she owes it to anyone to share forever.

aliza/babyfruit

Bec - you're missing my point. I am not saying bloggers do not have recourse to protecting their copyrights - I am saying that it is an unrealistic expectation that your copyright will never - either intentionally or unintentionally - be violated if you publish online and to use that as a trigger for removing your entire blog is just silly.

Julie - Thanks for commenting and sorry I'm so cranky, but yes, I do think that a person who engages in that kind of intimate and interactive blogging should not be so selfish and yes, that latecomers should have just as much right to access a valuable and rich resource. She can give up the blog and let it languish in the archives, but to pull it does more of a disservice than a service.

Again, if you are using blogs and blogging for your own personal, private exercise or are concerned about your copyrights or are fickle about whether or not the rest of the world should be able to benefit from it or not, then MAKE YOUR BLOG PRIVATE.

We are not living in a perfect copyright world. Yes, you have some inherent rights when you publish, even online, even via a blog, but you should not have any illusions that doing so isn't risky.

Even when I finally decide that this blog is probably driving me batty and might not be totally good for my health, I will leave the archives up because I can see by the traffic reports that people are finding it every day through searches and reading it indepth and then emailing me to say that it has been helpful in some way. Even if I give up paying for Typepad, I will still archive it on a free service like Blogger so that it can help the latecomers.

This blog is much more than just me and my heart and soul and uterus. It is a contribution to the Web and a gift (or pain in the ass and annoyance) to those who visit. It is a part of everything and everyone now, and I acknowledge that responsibility.

If you can't take the heat, blog private.

Julie

"Latecomers should have just as much right to access a valuable and rich resource."

A resource that is ultimately hers. Not yours, not mine, not that of miscarrying women yet to stumble across it. I feel like that's being forgotten in this discussion.

"She can give up the blog and let it languish in the archives, but to pull it does more of a disservice than a service."

That's, um, sort of meaningless because I don't think we agree on whether she or any of us has an obligation to perform a service!

I think we simply disagree. I must say, though, that I'm shocked to see such strong terms being thrown around -- selfish? fickle? -- when we're discussing someone who had the balls to expose her intimate thoughts out there for all of us to read. I think it's kind of nervy to expect that kind of generosity to operate in perpetuity just because she did it once.

getupgrrl

Julie, thank you - especially for pointing out that the removal of the archives is a very small part of a big effort on my part to connect with other women struggling with these issues. There's always the chance that out of the entire blog, the community that sprung up around it, the countless private emails exchanged, and the many friendships generated, someone will choose to create and focus on a negative or hostile "issue" or problem. But that says a lot more about them than it does about my blog.

aliza/babyfruit

Julie - if you post on the Web, publicly, you cannot have the same expectations that you have if you are writing in your personal journal or posting in a private and password protected blog.

Once anyone puts anything out there in public, while legal copyright ownership dictates (in the U.S. at least) that it is theirs, the reality of the Internet, Web and now blogs is that there is some collaborative "ownership."

I'm certainly not talking copyrights, I'm talking about someone else feeling validated/supported/comforted/informed by what someone else has created online and feeling that it (the blog) becomes a part of them and a part of their lives, even if it emanated from another person - a total stranger.

Others needing those resources deserve to have the benefit of the ones created and made public. At some point, it ceases to be "hers" and becomes "ours." Again, this is not a statement about copyright but about cyberspace and the blogosphere.

I'm trying to find an analogy for this but my brain is not processing properly at the moment. I'm usually really good with analogies and use them as my ace in the hole in lively debates.

Having been online since 1987, posting and sharing info and resources publicly since 1992 (pre-Web) and spilling my guts on the Web and now in blogs since 1995, I've been there and done that and have seen the Internet and Web evolve from an intimate vantage point. Blogs are pushing the envelope of everything from copyright issues to privacy issues to the definitions of concepts like "fame," "credibility," and "quality." I think "ownership" is another one of those areas that has multiple dimensions once you choose to participate in the blogosphere and post personal things in a public forum.

And yes, I am feeling kinda nervy...

aliza/babyfruit

Hi Getupgrrl and thanks for stopping by.

I am, like so many other people, sad to see you go and respect your decisions to do so. So many infertile bloggers (as many call themselves) change their blogs or even stop blogging once their priorities change (they adopt, have a baby by whatever means possible, get bored, get tired of the stress and pressure to post, etc.). Everyone has their reason for leaving.

Regarding your comment:

"the removal of the archives is a very small part of a big effort on my part to connect with other women struggling with these issues."

I guess I do not understand that statement- maybe it is my currently foggy brain. How can removing archives help you connect to other women who are struggling with these issues? I would think that leaving the archives up would keep the connections going in perpetuity and that is a beautiful, powerful and generous thing.

"someone will choose to create and focus on a negative or hostile "issue" or problem. But that says a lot more about them than it does about my blog."

Hmmm... I think that you are saying that I'm creating or focusing on a negative or hostile "issue" or problem. Well, yes, I admit I have been blogging in the last 24 hours about one tiny aspect of the whole blogging world. After acknowledging that you and your blog will be sorely missed, I was dismayed to find out that you had taken down your archives and blogged about it.

Being disappointed about that action isn't really focusing on the negative or creating a hostile issue. It is just lamenting a fact - you took them down, I think it stinks (just my opinion) and now others are commenting on my thoughts so the topic is reverberating.

Your actions struck a nerve and it is playing itself out. I still stand by my first post and comment on your blog and on other blogs about your departure. You will be missed.

Thea

As someone who just found blogs this year and who in that last week has discovered she has "abnormal anatomy of the uterus" I feel a little cheated to have missed out on hearing this wondeful story with such a happy ending.

What really bothers me though is the lack of reference to the removal of the archives on her site. I spent hours on google last week trying to figure out what happened to cause her to remove them. I've left posts in her comments asking for some help.

I'm in a desperae state of mind. Maybe she doesn't own me anything, but she must understand how sad it is for those of us just starting down this road, and what a nice gift it must be to have her story available to us.

I am mad about it, I don't care what is right or wrong. I want to know that I am not alone, I want to know how to deal with my husband who already has a child. I want to know what my marriage means now that I know it might just be us forever. I want to know what to do with the rest of my life. I want a friend who knows what this feels like and who can offer me advice and tell me everything will work out for the best.

All of those things and whatever else I haven't even thought of yet as I can't possibly know how huge of an impact this will have on my life.

Maybe she doesn't owe us anything, but honestly I don't care. I think it's selfish to go through all of that, document it, share it with the world, and then take it away.


hkazi

"I am mad about it, I don't care what is right or wrong... Maybe she doesn't owe us anything, but honestly I don't care. I think it's selfish to go through all of that, document it, share it with the world, and then take it away."

It's not selfish of her to do what she pleases with her own intellectual content. Blogs get taken down all the time. It might, however, be selfish of you to insist that she do something against her own wishes to make YOU happy.

Thea

"It's not selfish of her to do what she pleases with her own intellectual content."

I'm not sure what your point is. Calling someone selfish is purly a judgment call. For you to tell me that my opinion is wrong is pretty lame as it's not really your opinion I was trying to express.

"Blogs get taken down all the time. It might, however, be selfish of you to insist that she do something against her own wishes to make YOU happy."

I never "insisted" that she do anything. I just expressed my feelings on the matter. Like I said, I found it annoying that the archives are gone. I prefaced it with my current state of mind and then honestly stated how I have reacted to it.

aliza

Thea - I was going to comment on your first comment yesterday, thanking you for your perspective. I was actually relieved to hear another woman just admit she was upset about the archive thing. Hey, we're all entitled to our feelings, right?

Now, more than ever, I have to say I find it rather curious that the folks posting here "attacking" anyone who says anything deemed "against" getupgrrl are some of her loyal followers. Even getupgrrl seemed to take offense that we were upset that there are no archives left behind without acknowledging simply that we were sad to see her go.

Hmmm...touchy touchy...

Amy Beth

I came late to her blog and was upset at not being able to get the back story that all the other commenters knew. It left me kind of feeling like the new kid at school who is out of the loop on all the good gossip.

Since I have heard speculation that the real reason she removed the content was that she is either writing a book or pursuing a book deal I kind of hope I will get to play catch up at some point. But to be honest the "someone is stealing my content" reasoning does seem a little odd so I assumed right away there was something else behind the decision that she was choosing not to share.

Of course it is her right to remove what she wants. I don't think anyone has said otherwise. I also think it is within Thea's right to be annoyed and sad about it. DES daughters don't have a ton of resources and Chez Miscarriage seems like it was a wonderful place of support for them. I can totally understand being hurt and even a little pissed off about missing the boat on that opportunity for support and information. Information that came not only from Grrl but from thousands of commenters. I hope for their sake a book really is forthcoming and that the archives will one day be made available again.

Thea

I'd like to thank the last 2 posters for sticking up for me- So thank you :-) I would also like to clarify that I didn't intend to call Grrl selfish, just the ACT of removing the posts. As I don't know her I would never presume such things, I can only comment on my reaction to her actions. There's a big difference there.

And, I would love to read her book some day if indeed that is her next step in life.

getupgrrl

Actually, Thea, you DID call me selfish. Moreover, I find your two primary assumptions to be seriously flawed - first, that I am somehow obligated to make my life public in perpetuity in order to help you figure out "what to do with the rest of [your] life," and second, that my archives would somehow hold the magic answer to that question in the first place.

Aliza, it's hypocritical in the extreme for you to claim that people who disagree with you are merely defendng me. They're not. They're merely pointing out the weakness of your argument. Similarly, your allegation that Julie's opinion results from her status as some sort of newbie to the internet is absurd. If you knew her, you'd know that she has considerable expertise in that area - expertise that even exceeds yours.

I was directed to this discussion by a friend who thought I might like to participate. I don't want to anymore, and frankly, I'm sorry that I ever did in the first place. It reeks of pettiness and negativity - not to mention bad faith, given Aliza's tendency to make spurious and overbroad statements, then accuse everyone who disagrees with her of either having a personal stake in the argument or not knowing what they're talking about.

Thea

Yes I did call you selfish, that's why I wanted to clarify that that was not my intention. Second of all, I hate that your acting like I'm an idiot for wanting to find hope in your writting. If you didn't have so many people who supported you along your path, do you think you would be the same person today? Do you think that all those people telling you how much you've helped them along their paths is just a bunch of crap. Why is it okay ( in your opinion) that some people (like the ones who support your removal of the archives) get help and strength from you but not others.

I echo what someone else said. It feels like I arrived late to the cool girl party. Sorry to want to find hope like all your other readers did. Trust me, I won't look for it there again.

Thea

aliza/babyfruit

Getupgrrl - why are you getting so angry? I certainly did not call Julie a newbie - I only hypothesized that she might be one of your loyal followers and she was seeing my comments about the act of removing archives as a personal attack against you.

My comments about being online since 1987 were my way of explaining my personal perspective - I wasn't diminishing or even presuming to know how long she had been online. I was just trying to give some context to the nature of my own comments and how my perspective developed over nearly 2 decades. (Yikes, has it been that long!?)

I think we all may be suffering from the very common "Internet-itis" where we read something someone else is saying then project our own emotions onto their words, obliterating their true meaning and prescribing new meaning based on what we "think" they are saying at the moment.

As I read over all of these posts - those that comment on the actions of archival removal and those that attack those comments (and in some places attacking the people who made those comments), I realize that we're all thinking and wanting the same things here, but, alas, are awash in "Internet-itis."

We all are sad to see you go, Getupgrrl. We are all, to varying degrees, feeling something about the fact that you have removed your archives. All of us agree that you have the right to do anything you damn well please, some of us just feel a little cheated, like we missed the magic.

Some of us felt an emotional tie to your posts, your experiences, to you. And we also feel cheated like anyone who loves someone and they leave might feel. Is that wrong or right? I don't think that really warrants a judgement call.

Some of us - like me - feel strongly that positive, helpful and inspirational resources that are put online and become part of the larger fabric of the Internet and that become an intimate part of each one of us deserve to be online in perpetuity. That is one of the most magnificent things about the Internet - that things can remain online forever and help people - women - for years to come.

To get angry that any of us feel the way we feel is just silliness. Besides the fact that we are all entitled to our opinions and our emotions, we all acknowledge that you are entitled to do whatever the heck you want. It doesn't make us happy but it doesn't have to. The other beautiful thing about the Internet is that we can go through our unhappiness, our mixed emotions, even our anger and disappointment online - here - until we can make sense of what we are feeling.

But to attack the people - the women - who have strong feelings one way or another about your actions isn't fair. What kind of safe place is established when women are attacked for expressing themselves?

None of us attacked - or meant to attack - you as a person, Getupgrrl. But like I said, we are all - you included - clearly suffering from Interenet-itis. We see and hear what we want to see and hear because we are human.

DJ

Aliza, I'm afraid I don't understand the logic.

You seem to say that Grrl would have been kinder--less selfish--if she'd never written, or had just written privately. If no one at all had ever had a chance to benefit from what she did.

That's like saying a person is selfish for volunteering at the shelter for a few years and then stopping. Whereas if they'd never volunteered in the first place, they wouldn't be doing anything wrong. This is baffling to me.

Yes, some people got helped, and the new people at the shelter -- the people like Thea -- won't get Grrl's archived help. I too am sorry for this. But to be irritated with her for it seems ungrateful and wrong.

Her removal of her archives doesn't make her selfish. Many people have started infertility blogs simply because they were inspired by Grrl to do so. Thea won't get to read Grrl's blog, but a lot of the information and support she WILL find will have come indirectly from Grrl.

If I drive a few people to work every day for free for a few years, then quit, should the people who now don't get a chance to benefit be mad at me? Especially if some of those I drove are now offering rides themselves, because they appreciated my help?

Rachel

It's all about the money, man. Bottom line - she wants a book deal. And she doesn't want any of us to mess THAT up. Too bad.

MB

I don't care if she writes a book or not, but, I sort of feel "cheated". That we, the readers, were used as her launching pad to jump start her book and I believe she is writing one or has one in the works. I also don't believe some of her previous experiences (I'm not referring to anything pregnancy-related) I mean when she was in the restaurant/diner and overheard 2 men discussing how fat their wives were and she was on her cell phone making comments they could hear and she ended up getting a final word in right when the elevator doors were closing. C'mon. That's something out of a sitcom.

I respect what she has been through - I really do, but I was starting to get suspicous when she pulled the archives. How does the saying go: Don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining.

Christina

MB-

How funny - I would read some of her posts as well and say, wow, she sure thinks fast on her feet. HMMMMMM. . .

Melissa

I'm just sad I didn't get to read it before it was taken down. I've heard such great things about it.

Jessica

I think it is utterly absurd to feel "cheated" by the idea of having been "her launching pad to jump start her book"--if there even is a book (which I would love)--because all that would mean is that you got, at one time, for free, what people in the future will have to pay for. Stuff stops being free on the internet all the time, and it sucks, but so what? I am enormously grateful that I was lucky enough to be around when grrl's archives were available--about a year and a half ago I read through them all, and have been following her story ever since--and although I wish that the archives were still available, it would be ludicrous for me to be put out by the fact that they are not. And if there is a book, I'll gladly be first in line to buy it.

orislokilefe

My ka kept shoving me off, snowing pathetic she got every sushi of gelding out of my av and into her mouth.

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